A Conversation with Michael Gerber: author of The E-Myth

Intro  0:04 

Welcome to The Future Is Borderless podcast with David Nilssen. We feature top entrepreneurs and thought leaders from around the world, those who bring a global mindset and a unique perspective to their life and business. Now, let’s get started with the show.

David Nilssen  0:22 

I am David Nilssen, host of The Future Is Borderless podcast. This was a special episode where I’m on a panel with a few other top podcast hosts interviewing a very special guest, Michael Gerber, who is the author of the E-Myth Revisited. Now, before we jump into that interview, this episode is brought to you by Doxa Talent. Doxa helps businesses to outsource full time highly skilled workers from all over the world. And as a result, these companies can scale faster, increase margins and improve culture. To learn more about how Doxa can help you leverage borderless talent, simply go to doxatalent.com. Now let’s get to the show.

Jeremy Weisz  0:58 

Dr. Jeremy Weisz here, founder of inspiredinsider.com. I’m joined by a panel of some of the top podcast hosts around and before we introduce today’s special guest, Michael E. Gerber, the E-Myth. We’ll introduce our hosts and David, why don’t you start us off?

David Nilssen  1:14 

Hi there, David Nilssen, founder of Doxa Talent, and the host of The Future Is Borderless podcast where we highlight thought leaders and entrepreneurs from around the world.

Josh Hadley  1:23 

And I’m Josh Hadley, I’m the host of the eComm Breakthrough Podcast where I interviewed the top business leaders in e-commerce to help share actionable steps that our audience can take to grow from seven-figure e-comm businesses to eight figures and beyond.

Michelle Prince  1:38 

And I’m Michelle Prince, host of the Power Of Authority Spotlight where we shine the light on business owners, entrepreneurs, leaders who are building a brand, they’re building a platform and they’re using their story to build their authority.

Tom Foster  1:52 

And I am Tom Foster, I do The World of Marketing Podcast, and I even Foster Web Marketing. We build websites for lawyers and doctors, and I read your book years ago, it was one of the most inspirational books I’ve ever read. I’m an entrepreneur, and I sunk my teeth in your book, Michael, it was one of the first ones that set me on my journey. So I am like hero worshipping right now. So it’s really an honor to meet you, sir.

Jeremy Weisz  2:20 

I feel like this happens every other interview, Michael that someone mentions your book is the foundation for them starting. So as a proper intro, Inc Magazine calls today’s guests the world’s number one small business guru. He’s an entrepreneurial and small business thought leader whose impact the lives of millions and millions of small business owners and hundreds of 1000s of companies worldwide for over 40 years. Michael E. Gerber is the author of The New York Times mega-bestseller and not just bestseller, mega-bestseller for two consecutive decades, the E-Myth Revisited and nine other worldwide best-selling E-Myth books concerning small business entrepreneurship, leadership and management. And his mission is to transform the state of small business worldwide, which he’s done. Michael, thanks for joining us.

Michael E Gerber  3:18 

My delight, by the way, the readjustment of your script. It’s now 32 E-myth books strong.

Tom Foster  3:27 

That is fantastic. Congratulations to you, sir. Thank you.

Jeremy Weisz  3:33 

You just had one with Austin Clark, who I know a launch of that book for pest control space. Love it. And we promoted that event that you guys did together. So that was awesome.

Michael E Gerber  3:46 

Austin’s a sweetheart.

Jeremy Weisz  3:47 

He’s great. So David, why don’t you start us off? The first question.

David Nilssen  3:52 

Sure. Well, first, Michael, I will say similar to Tom, one of the first books I read when I started my entrepreneurial journey, and was struggling because I was that entrepreneur that wanted to reinvent everything and change it constantly and paid little attention to process and procedures. And I just thought it was a fantastic book and inspirational for me in terms of how to evolve as a business owner. And I guess along those lines, I would ask, when you first wrote the book, I’d be curious, what was the sort of overarching message you were hoping to convey? And then how has that changed since then? If you look at how the world has evolved, how or has it changed?

Michael E Gerber  4:29 

Well, first of all, let me correct something, an assumption you’ve made, that the world has evolved. Everybody believes that the world has evolved to pass it. The world has devolved. In fact, we are in worse shape today than we’ve ever been. So then what has evolved? Well, technology has evolved. Technology provides us with many tools that we didn’t have or even imagined having when I wrote my book. But what’s interesting about those tools is that they are in themselves systems. And they are purported to be systems that will transform the state of a business. The truth is, without what I’ve written in my core book of nothing will evolve, it will devolve because the systems themselves will be thought to be the marketing difference that makes the business different. I’d like to add that it’s not about making the business different. It’s about making the business, right. And the only way one can make the business right, is to meet the people right within the business, who don’t understand why, right, the word right and what the word right really means. That’s the most profound impact the E-Myth Revisited is because it defined the word right. And doing so now more strenuously than I did in the book. But it defines the word right, in the right way. And that’s why Tom described his experience, the way you have is, and that’s why David, you’ve described your definition, the way you would have, and I’m sure I’ll hear very much the same thing from everyone else in this conversation. And please hear me when I say that that’s not my narcissism speaking. That’s my realization, speaking. That’s what that book meant, and means and will always mean. And it will mean that forever.

Josh Hadley  7:03 

Michael, I’m amazed with the book that you wrote E-Myth, and because it is a timeless principles that are going to impact generations to come. And I look forward to my children and my grandchildren being able to read those principles, as an e-commerce business owner and as I speak with other e-commerce, business owners, there’s kind of this myth that people believe that they could do it all on their own, right. And what they do is they build a team of a lot of BAs, that are surrounding themselves, but they are still the core function of the business. There’s a quote from your book that I want to read real quick and get your take on it. If your business depends on you, you don’t own a business, you have a job. And it’s the worst job in the world because you’re working for a lunatic. So Michael, can you provide some additional insight as to if you are working in the business, why you don’t actually own a business?

Michael E Gerber  8:09 

Well, you have to understand that, oftentimes, my statements are stronger than they need to be. Oftentimes, as well, they’re not strong enough. But don’t understand take that, quote, working for a lunatic, and you might change it to be working for an idiot. And it’s that idiot that I attempt to transform. And the only way in the world that idiot is going to be transformed, is if he or she doesn’t persist being that idiot, in the way they think about who they are, why they do what they do, what they’re there to create, and how it’s going to be created, if in fact, they grow beyond their idiothood. So it’s a master, master, master position to take Josh. In short, just strenuously understand that while you’re not in a people development and business, in short, that’s not the intent. You are. You get what I mean by that, while you’re not in a people development business, you actually are everyone is, but the question then becomes what is people development? And how does one approach people development at the very outset, and that is in the positioning of who you are and what you do. So the most critical process in what I describe how many of you have read Beyond The E-Myth?

Josh Hadley  9:59 

Yes, I’ve read it.

Michael E Gerber  10:00 

Well, congratulations, Josh, folks, pick the book up. It’s Beyond The E-Myth: The Evolution of an Enterprise: From a Company of One to a Company of 1,000!. And the heart of that book is what I described as the eightfold path, the Eightfold Path is crucial to the process of becoming who you intend to be. Let me describe the eight steps in the Eightfold Path. I have a dream, I have a vision, I have a purpose. I have a mission. I have a job. I have a practice. I have a business. I have an enterprise, a dream, a vision, the purpose, the mission job, the practice, the business, the enterprise, the Eightfold Path is the process for growing a company of one to a company of 1000, it is the process of maturing from doing it yourself, doing it, doing it, doing it doing it to create an enterprise that does it in great measure, with a great number of individuals who are in fact, instilled in the process of understanding and appreciating what a dream is, what a vision is, what a purpose is, what a mission is. How many of you are familiar with The Dreaming Room. So The Dreaming Room is a program that I developed to take one through the first four steps to discover your dream, your vision, your purpose, your mission. If you fail to discover your dream, I’m saying you’ll never discover your vision. If you fail to discover your dream, I’d say never discovered your purpose. You follow me and follow me first, then that then that then that. So there’s a process, a mad process through which you grow in maturity, you grow in eliquids, you grow in ability to literally become the one you can’t even imagine becoming at the very outset of this process. My dream way back then in 1977, wow, that’s a long time ago. My dream was to transform the state of small business worldwide. My dream was to transform the state of small business worldwide. My vision was to invent the McDonald’s of small business development services. My mission was that every small business who in fact, accepts this process can indeed realize the outcome I’m describing here. And my mission is that was in 1977. That I can invent the distance development system that will make it possible for me to realize my dream, my vision, and my purpose. Did that make sense?

Josh Hadley  13:45 

Makes a lot of sense. And I love those eight steps in that process that you go through because it truly is like an evolution of growing and developing.

Michael E Gerber  13:52 

It’s an evolution. It’s an evolution, but it’s not based upon evolution. It’s based upon something significantly more compelling than evolution. That’s what’s so critical about it.

Michelle Prince  14:10 

Yeah, gosh, I had a different question. But now I want to kind of segue a little because, first of all, 14 years ago, I started my business and about a year in somebody gave me the E-Myth Revisited. And it changed my life and I would not be in business today had I not read that book and understood the importance of systems and process and all the things that I kind of…

Michael E Gerber  14:34 

Each of you say what you’re saying. It does, it touches my heart. Because of course, that’s the sole reason I’ve been doing what I’ve been doing and to hear it in such a compelling way in such an authentic way is very, very moving to me. It’s so thank you. When you say years ago, years ago, years ago, years ago, and here you are evidencing the shine on your faces in your hearts. How meaningful this was to you. It’s very, very compelling to me. Thank you.

Michelle Prince  15:14 

Well, it’s a pleasure to be able to tell you that because it really is true. And it’s interesting when you start talking about the people development. And this is where my question changed. So I came from and my background is in people development, I worked with Zig Ziglar. And when I started my business, I thought, that’s all I really needed. And that’s why the E-Myth really helped me because I realized I needed more than just my passion more than just those skills. I needed the systems. But what I’m hearing you say, with the Beyond The E-Myth, it’s really, it isn’t one or the other, it is both. But what is something a brand new business owner can do to implement that quicker? Because I know for me, I wish I would have been able to implement this earlier, to take that dream mission vision and then transfer it into the systems and processes. Is there another way? Is there a faster way is there a better way than what people are doing today, because I see a lot of business owners who have even read it still struggle, and I’ll raise my hand and that sometimes too?

Michael E Gerber  16:13 

Faster doesn’t work in my world. But it doesn’t work in yours either. And it’s simply a product of our time. Faster, faster, faster, faster, everybody wants faster, when in fact, they can’t even do slower. And so I’m suggesting that first thing you can say to every single person in the room, don’t talk faster to me, faster never has worked. And if it has, it’s an accident. If you attempt to emulate faster, you’re attempting to emulate stupid. Because what you’ll discover at the end of faster is you haven’t gotten there. You only thought you had and the problem is it’s going to kill you faster than you can even imagine. It’s slower. The Zen of it. It’s slower. It’s slower. Speak to me slowly. Measure your words, as you speak to me slowly. Take this in slowly. Practice it slowly, definitively, honestly, earnestly, with all of your being. As you go into the martial arts, there is no you get there faster. Stupid. It’s impossible. To understand, you’ve got to do this 1000 times, you’ve got to do this 3000 times. And you’ve got to do this 3000 times artfully, so artfully that you can’t even conceive of how you got to this point of doing this 1000 times 10,000 times. The gentleman who’s one of my co-authors told me that he reread the E-Myth Revisited 39 times. Hear me he reread it 39 times that he never would have been able to do it so artfully, had he not reread it 39 times you say that to somebody who’s in a hurry. Michelle, you follow me?

Michelle Prince  19:05 

I do. I do.

Michael E Gerber  19:06 

Understand that you’re not actually attempting to teach them how to do it faster, you’re attempting to get it faster yourself. Because they’re making a demand on you faster, faster, faster, Michelle. And because you’re concerned, you’re not going to be able to sustain your relationship with them unless you respond to them in kind. You’re forced to look for faster. Hear me be the artful one who looks for slower in every single thing you do. Be the artful one who looks for slower and speak it more slowly, more definitively. In contradiction to their requirement for you to go faster. That’s the most thing I can say.

Michelle Prince  20:10 

No, that’s great advice. Thank you, thank you for that.

Michael E Gerber  20:17 

You have absolutely no idea, the profound impact that will have on the people who work with you as they slow down. As they give themselves up to the pace of art. You don’t get our done quickly. You do it, you do it, and you do it and you do it and you do it, and you do it and you do it and you do it, and you do it and you do it and you do it and you do it, and you’re still a slob. You’re still a jerk, you’re still a beginner. So you must turn to everyone who says that and say you’re a beginner? Moron, you’re beginner? Don’t you dare ask me for a quick solution to become an artist, don’t you dare ask me for something it’s impossible to give. Now, let’s all slow down. And you set that pace, you can feel that pace being set as you set that pace. Follow me as you set that pace. You set their hearts. And if you set their hearts appropriately, you set their imagination appropriate. When you surround yourself with individuals who are there for the long term, who are there for the long term? Can you imagine your students being there for the long term? Can you feel the difference that makes? So imagine your martial arts class and follow me. You’re all martial art leaders who use, imagine your martial arts class slowing down? As you begin to see that everything changes.

Tom Foster  22:51 

Well, Michael, that is fantastic. And, man, you are such an inspiration. You are the foundation. Like everybody just has copied you for the last since you wrote the book. Everybody’s just copied you and had some kind of version of what you came up with. So I’ve got a couple of questions. One is, how did you inspired to do it in the first place? Did you have a business that you were like, I’m an idiot, I got to help other people where you want observing others friends, or your family or what inspired you to go write the book in the first place?

Michael E Gerber  23:35 

Well, I wasn’t inspired to write the book until I did the work. So working for 10 years with small businesses at the request of a very close friend of mine, who had an advertising agency in Silicon Valley. And he had small business clients. And he told me about his problem with one particular client, and he asked me if I would come visit that client to help him fix the problem he was having. And I said to my friend, and my friend’s name is Ace Remus. An Ace is still a friend and he’s my sister’s husband. And he said I don’t know anything about business, I have no idea how I can help he said, Michael, you know more than you think you do. Just come with me. Let’s meet the guy and that’s the way it’s. So being the agreeable, sorry. I left when I say that being the agreeable sort that I am. I said, Okay, sure. Let’s go. So I sat down with a guy and Ace then immediately said, guys, I’m gonna take off. And we get to know each other, we’ll be back in an hour to pick Michael up. First thing the guy asked me as he looked at his watch. So what do you know about my business Michael? Nothing? Because I did. And I wasn’t interested in asking Ace anything about the business. And he said, well, what do you know about my product? And I said less than that. And he really looked discomforted? Well, if you don’t know anything about my business, and you just want to make the my product, how in the world can you help me hasn’t having a clue? I told Ace that, Ace said he thinks I can. And we’re here to meet to find out how. So the best way I know to do that is to get to ask you questions, and the first set of the answers that you give me. So let’s get started. And that’s what we did. I began asking questions. And he began to answer them. In gradually, over a very short period of time, it became obvious to me why the guy had broken the guy. And it wasn’t that I didn’t know about his business. It wasn’t that I didn’t know about his product. It’s that he didn’t. It became so transparent. In any case, that’s how this all started. And I saw that guy’s problem. And Ace asked me to meet with the second client, and then a third client, and that’s how I got into the business. I mean. Because I began to realize that Ace, didn’t know what business he was in your haste didn’t understand his product. Because ace in the advertising business, was selling something that he shouldn’t be selling. Because he was selling it to people who needed something completely different. And that completely different is what I set out to create.

David Nilssen  27:53 

Michael, I have a question. You said something a few minutes ago, that just was really got me thinking. First of all, I will read…

Michael E Gerber  27:59 

Wait a second, David, Tom had several questions it wanted to conclude. So, do that.

Tom Foster  28:09 

Thank you. The other question I had is, you’ve written several many books. And it is amazing to me. How do you stay inspired? How do you keep your brand so fresh over all of this time? And how have you done that? How have you had the mental? How have you done it? It’s just incredible. Like, my hat is off to you. How have you done that been able to keep that brand so strong and so fresh?

Michael E Gerber  28:49 

Well, you had to appreciate the question, we became immersed in the shell that the problem is so difficult to some because the problem represents a problem with the development of human life. Every aspect of human life beyond anything we’ve ever addressed before. So it’s not how do I stay interested in it? It’s how does it stay interested in me? Sufficiently to keep me alive, working on it to the degree that’s needed. Because Tom, let me say that my greatest problem is that the problem has been bigger than any one of us. And that’s what is arisen in the work that I do the problem is bigger than any one of us, I can’t even begin to challenge the weight, the size, the measure of the problem, to the degree called for, I simply don’t have it within me sufficiently to uncover the complexity of it. And to approach it in a simplified way it calls for demands that what I’m dealing with is an art form can’t be better described as an art form. It’s beyond me. And because it’s an art form that’s beyond me, beyond you beyond any of us, it represents a challenge. The challenge that I welcome every single human being on the planet to engage with. And that’s what has kept me connected to it. It’s that, oh, my God, no, it’s not that it’s this. God, it’s not this. It’s that. Oh, my God, it’s not this and that. It’s that and this and that. Right? Who’s got the time? Who’s got the energy? Who’s got the wherewithal, who’s got the intelligence? You follow me? So the job is bigger than any of us? We solve that problem. We sitting here, we solved that problem, we transform the state of human life worldwide, not just in the thinking about it. But in the actual practice of it. So I want you to imagine Tom, that’s what we’re engaged in transforming the practice of being human in everything we do. It’s called Holy shit. You mean, we can do that? So that’s what’s calling every one of us. Whether we’ve come to the realization of that or not, is another question. But that’s what’s calling each and every one of us. That massive, massive, massive question, transform the state of humanity worldwide.

David Nilssen  33:16 

Michael, let me ask you a question. You’re talking about transforming humanity. I want to just talk about the transformation of an individual entrepreneur. And you actually brought this up a minute ago with the Beyond The E-myth, you said one to 1000. And I think about the transformation or the evolution that an entrepreneur has to go through during that time period is being massive, because in the very beginning, we are chief cook, and bottle washer, and everything does depend on us. And as we grow, we have to learn how to trust our team, delegate, build our team, all those things. What advice would you give someone who is sort of in the middle there, they’re starting to make that transition and finding it difficult, like all of us?

Michael E Gerber  34:00 

Quit? Do you say quit, quit? Stop. Start over again. We’re going to start at the beginning. Start over and your business is not going to succeed anyway. You’re not going to succeed anyway. Quit. Start at the beginning. Might I say that understand how harsh that is? In one respect, because hope, hope, and need at all the things that live in that question says, oh, come on. Come on. Come on. I’m saying stop. Quit. Start a new we’re going to start working on you as a human being first, long before we ever get to becoming an entrepreneur. First you as a human being, David as a human being. And that’s what we’re gonna do. That’s the work. Now, where we did discover that, where we do have the patience for that, where we do design, build, launch, and grow that something absolutely miraculous would occur. So I’m saying if we were to start this whole thing with high school kids, the very first day of high school freshman, sophomore, junior, senior from the very first day of high school, we would begin to design, build, launch, and grow our people. To a degree we never have. And as we begin to do that, as a freshman, a sophomore, a junior, a senior, graduated from high school, into a new engagement of four years. Now we’re working on our human being for eight years, in an intelligent, extraordinarily devoted way, can you imagine the person we’d be facing for years after graduating from high school? You can’t. You can’t even begin to imagine who that person would be. If that were me, but only then would they be ready to begin. But I’ll guarantee you, significantly fewer of them will begin to be entrepreneurs. Thank God.

Josh Hadley  37:31 

Michael, on that note, one of the things as you begin to scale a business and as you go from one to 1000 to an enterprise, you’re going to have to work with people, right? And we talked about people development. in your decades of experience, do you have any advice or tips when it comes to finding and hiring a level talent for your business?

Michael E Gerber  37:57 

Well, that’s obviously a system. Obviously, how you select the people you hire, what you put them through before you ever bring them aboard? And how you determine their makeup before you ever bring them aboard. Create a method for that madness. And the people you bring aboard will be immensely different than the people you’re bringing aboard today. What is that military group? The Elite Military, US Navy SEALs.

Tom Foster  38:44 

Okay, they’re elite, they’re okay too.

Michael E Gerber  38:46 

Think about US Navy SEALs for the moment. The SEALs put people through living hell before they ever get to become a beginner a Navy SEALs. And yet 90% of those who become a Navy SEAL drop out before they become a Navy SEAL, 90% drop out before they become a Navy SEAL. And the ones who become beginners have been through an immense amount of development before they’re ever qualified to go through the first stages. And then the Navy SEALs, put them through living hell. Put that down through living hell. Challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging. You follow me. As you can hear me, how do you expect them to become stars? Challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging? So that’s the process. It’s so far beyond anything we do. So far beyond anything anybody expects you believes they need to do wants to do. Because none of the people in your organization ever been through it. Challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging? How do you expect them to bring aboard people who will do it? They won’t? Why would they? Challenging, challenging, challenging, challenging, you understand the danger that creates for your people. So you’ve got to start this over here. See where I’m putting my, you got to start this over here. There are two organizations within your organization, every single one of you, there is old CO, and there is new CO. You’re not here to grow old CO. You’re here to grow new CO. And new CO, old CO. Old CO is the past. New CO is the future. You’re here to design, build, launch and grow new CO. That’s your navy seals. The question then is do you have the measure in you to design, build, launch and grow your navy seals? Hear me that’s not an easy question to answer. Unfortunately, it is because we don’t really ever address it. Give me a break, give me a break. I don’t even want to create a navy seals in my business. But that’s what it takes. That’s what it takes to work on new CO while you go to work on old CO. And you’re going to work on Old CO to keep it from failing. But it’s not the future.

Tom Foster  41:15

Yeah, Michael, I think it’s an important mindset shift that the listeners take off, with your analogy of Navy Seals and that’s the type of talent that you need to be developing for your business in order to grow it to that new CO. So I really appreciate that. And I hope our listeners go back and re-listen to that. That’s a huge mindset shift that business owners need to have when they begin to hire talent.

Michael E Gerber  43:17

Yes, but hear me it’s a huge mindset and soul set. Soul set for you. Don’t you dare tell that story until you set your soul to it. And please be careful about telling yourself that you’ve set your soul to it. Because if you haven’t said your soul to it, it’s going to chew you up and spit you out. Because you’re not going to match it. And the last thing I want to do is to put you into the grinder, the soul grinder that will put you in. So you’ll stay one day Gerber, the day you told me that story was the day I went out of business.

Michelle Prince  44:18 

Michael I have a question. I’m curious. So we all know you because we’ve read your books, and how has been a published author when you first set out, how has being a published author helped to build your authority and really helped to establish you as the expert and follow on to that, would you recommend that other business owners follow that same path?

Michael E Gerber  44:41 

My books have set the soul for our business without question. My books have set the soul for the creation of our business, for the development of our business, for the activation or clients for our business for the communication of our business, our books have set the soul for the soul of our business. So yes, without a doubt, and I didn’t write my book until 10 years into my business, you follow me? What was the further end of that question?

Michelle Prince  45:22 

Would you recommend that other business owners? Because that’s really opened up so much opportunity for you? Would you recommend other business owners as they’ve evolved and grown into their business learning things that they share that also in a book and leverage it.

Michael E Gerber  45:34 

You see that everybody has? There’s no question about it, that you look at those other guys who have, in quotes, copy me, they’ve copied me by writing their version of my book. Now, please, again, that’s not my narcissism speaking. It’s just true. They’ve copied me by writing their version of my book. So I can only say that, yes, writing a book about them, I believe is a critical piece of the puzzle. Because the means to which you communicate to a larger and larger and larger audience. And then doing that, through podcasts, as we’re doing now, enables you to share that message, open that marketplace, read the book, stupid, read the book, stupid, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And of course, the book says, then what to do next? Obviously, so yes, I would recommend that and have recommended that with functionary 10 Most people write a bad book. Most books fail. But most businesses fail. It’s much easier to fail writing a book than it is failing writing a business, because you don’t see the business fail in time for you to get ready for it. The book fails. So obviously, the average book sells fewer than 250 copies. And that was a lot of work. Got it?

Michelle Prince  47:35 

Yes. Thank you,

Jeremy Weisz  47:36 

Michael. I just wanted to be the first one to thank you really appreciate your time and being here with all of us and sharing your message with anyone listening. I want to point everyone to all of your books, E-Myth and E-Myth Beyond and also michaelegerbercompanies.com to check out everything that you have going on and just want to thank you for everything you’ve done for all of us over the years.

Michael E Gerber  48:01 

Thank you. And might I say you might be clearer in your description of your guests, and what you expect of your guests as compared to what you expect of your audience. And that will help greatly.

Jeremy Weisz  48:26 

Thanks, Michael. Thanks, everyone.

Tom Foster  48:27 

Thank you so much, Michael. It’s such an honor to meet you.

Outro  48:32 

Thank you for listening to The Future Is Borderless podcast with David Nilssen. Be sure to click subscribe to future episodes so you can hear from more top entrepreneurs and thought leaders, and we’ll see you again next time.